An interview by Patti Normandy Greenwood
Since 1974, Jach Pursel has channeled Lazaris, a spark of consciousness that has never been physical. Through workshops, private consultations, books and tapes, the message that Lazaris brings has lovingly touched thousands of people all over the planet.
Explaining Lazaris is a lot like trying to explain love. He brings to our world a positive message of hope for our future, but it is the love between the lines that touches the heart. There is a joyful realization that you have found a new friend who loves you unconditionally.
Lazaris comes to help us discover more of who we are, gently empowering us as we expand our awareness to embrace the endless possibilities that are the undiscovered aspects of ourselves.
I count his telephone interview among the special moments of my life.
Patti Greenwood: Lazaris, your beautiful message reminds a lot of us of the Seth Material. Can you tell us anything about multi-dimensional personality called Seth and the current whereabouts of his channel, Jane Roberts?
Lazaris: Yes. All right. Well, we are aware indeed that a lot of what we talk about is very similar to a lot that Seth has spoken of, which was also very similar to the core of metaphysics—the real metaphysics which began with the conception of human consciousness.
First, we have a great deal of admiration for Seth, for the courage and the commitment that he demonstrated so very beautifully so many years ago by beginning his communications, by bringing forth the words both verbally and most particularly in writing so early, so quickly, so beautifully.
Similarly, we have tremendous admiration and respect for Jane for her courage and curiosity as well as her level of commitment and the intellect that was required in order to allow curiosity to be a valid, functioning strength. Long before this was an acceptable process, long before channeling was acknowledged, there they were. And it’s a tremendous love and a tremendous respect that we have for both of them.
Seth is very busy, quite clearly so. We were aware of the energy that is Jane and Seth when they were both functioning on the physical plane, and we are still aware of them.
What’s happening in the two accounts: First of all, the one who is know as Seth is doing similar work, clearly so—one would expect that—teaching, communicating, sharing concepts, laying forth ideas and understandings of the truth. By the way, part of the reason why a lot of what Seth talked about sound so very similar is because the truth is the truth. You’ve got real problems when it starts sounding very dissimilar. Then there’s difficulty in your world.
Seth is still doing similar work without the use of the channeled body form, clearly so. He is now working with those who have passed on, as you would call it, those who have left the physical plane and are searching. Because, you see, growth does not end with the physical body. One could well say that real growth begins when you decide to discard that physical form. You get rid of the vehicle that you are currently using in all of its density, and then the growth really ‘revs up,’ then things really ‘heat up.’ Then you really get going, as it were, with the patterns of growth so much more quickly.
You know, we have sometimes used the analogy of when you were in fourth and fifth grade, and you learned how to multiply and divide and your teacher rather persistently kept telling you, ‘Show your work!’ And the reason that the teacher asked you to show your work so frequently—almost so irritatingly—was because she or he wanted not only to know that you got the right answer, but that you know how you got there.
Well, the physical plane is, in its own way, showing your work, because, in a sense, you create your own reality out of the thoughts and feelings that you have, out of the choices and out of the decisions, out of the attitudes and the beliefs.
As we have said, and as Seth has said, belief precedes experience. Belief precedes reality, clearly so. You see, you create it first ‘in your head.’ You could ‘do it in your head,’ but indeed you show your work. You demonstrate that not only can you create your own reality, but you know how it got there. You create a physical form which is, in a sense, the long division—all that stuff that is below the line that you use to show your work. Once you have demonstrated, as in mathematics, that you know how to multiply and divide, then the teacher says, ‘OK, you can do it in your head,’ or ‘you can use a calculator to figure it all out.’
Well, in a similar sense, once you have demonstrated physically that you know what you’re doing, that you have learned, at least to an adequate degree, how to create to success, and how to create fun, then the teacher inside of you, the God energy inside of you, says, ‘OK, you can do it in your head now,’ and therefore you can leave the physical form behind.
Well, once you leave the physical forms behind, and you can do basic mathematics in your head, then you get into the higher kind of mathematics, to use that analogy a little further. You get into the real tricky, the real intricate, and lots of fun stuff.
Well, similarly, in growth, once you can ‘do it in your head,’ once you can create your reality in your head and not have to demonstrate your homework, not have to demonstrate that you know how you got there, then, in that sense, you get into the really exciting and fun stuff that growth is really made of.
Seth is like Seth, in that sense, still the same, perhaps more Seth II than Seth I, but doing the same kind of work: exploring, explaining, helping, reaching, touching people, in that particular regard.
What about Jane? Her work is different, but similarly delightful. She spent her time, of course, in the somnambulistic state, recovering from the agony that she went through in the process of leaving her body. In her indecision as to ‘should I stay, should I go’ she experienced a tremendous amount of agony, as those who are close to her, those who are aware of the situation, know. And those who aren’t don’t really need to know more details than just that. She went into a somnambulistic state to rest, to catch up in that way, to sort of make up for that lost time that she went through.
Once she completed that she was very alert, very ready. Since she already knew what death was about, it did not frighten her. It did not scare her. It was like stepping across through a veil onto another level, very clearly, with a great deal of consciousness involved, very clearly so. But nonetheless, after the rest, she was up and at it, as it were, reviewing the life, looking at it wondering, ‘Now what in the world did I do that for?’ And, ‘What in the world was this lifetime all about and how does it fit in with all the others?’
Indeed, she is in communication with Seth, there’s no question, but not in a ‘channeled’ form where she has to ‘get out of the way’ so that he can come through her, but now they can sit together. Now they take long walks hand in hand. They take long walks, so to speak—not literally hand in hand perhaps—but they take long walks. They talk. They discuss. Seth offers her ideas. He counters with his. They agree. They disagree is a very joyous and friendly way. They smile a tremendous amount, and they laugh an awful lot. She has a real friendship, something that she missed in that way, the part of the puzzle that for her was missing with her relationship with Seth as long as she had a body and he did not. She missed the friendship.
And now that she does not have a body, either, she can still learn from Seth, which was her greatest and truest joy. She can walk with him and talk with him and the two of them can share as friends, in that way, meeting somewhat eyeball to eyeball. Finally she has what was missing—her friendship with Seth.
She so much wanted to know what he said. So much she wanted to know, ‘What did he tell people tonight?’ Her desire was so strong that some of the information would bleed through for her. She would get a sense of it. ‘I had a feeling he was talking of that.’ Etc. Now she knows, and indeed is joyously happy. She is doing fantastically well.
Her plans, of course, are her own and therefore not to be fully shared, but let us suggest that her plans are obviously to grow, to move forward, not to return to physical form, but rather to continue her growth on other levels and to continue a friendship which is deepening as the emotional content of her relationship with Seth has now deepened and broadened.
Once, when she was alive she realized, ‘I never want to let go of this.’ Now that she’s no longer in physical form and perhaps is more alive than ever, she knows, very clearly, ‘I never want to let go of this.’
Therefore, the two of them are quite content, quite happy, each doing their own work. She’s doing a lot of writing on her own. She cherishes those ‘times’ (as you call them in your physical world) that they can be together. They both love ‘the time’ they have together, walking in the gardens, walking by the riverbank, and sitting and arguing philosophical points. They both appreciate the wonderful friendship of learning, and that emotional depth of learning that so much they both sought with one another as aspects, as they sense themselves of one another.
Therefore, that’s what’s going on with Jane as best we can tell you at this point, and as best we’re, in a sense, permitted to tell you at this point.
Patti: Thank you very much.
Lazaris: Certainly so. Well, we suggest that each person does create their own reality, so each person has to answer that for themselves. If, for example, you, Patti, were to get a double-barreled shotgun and go tromping through the woods hunting deer, it would be quite an interesting and even funny sight, but it also would also not work with your consciousness, because you would feel like it’s very wrong—whereas someone else with clear or full consciousness could go deer hunting and, for them, it would be fine. Out point; Some say, ‘Well, it’s consciousness, and therefore I don’t want to eat it or in any way disrupt its pattern of life.’ The problem: Everything is consciousness. Every plant is consciousness. Every rock is consciousness, clearly so.
Therefore, follow your beliefs, but don’t judge others for theirs. Also, don’t become dogmatic or rigid even in your beliefs. As you refuse to eat meat because it is a consciousness, what do you think the carrot is that you just ate, or the rice is that you plan to eat later? Everything has consciousness. If you are not going to eat things with consciousness, there’s nothing left. What are you going to do? Breathe the air? That’s consciousness too!
As you breath, you’re converting oxygen, using it in the body, and expelling what? Carbon dioxide! You are disturbing the pattern of life. Hold your breath, don’t eat anything, and, by the way, don’t move, because you’re stepping on consciousness. Therefore, suspend yourself, elevate, without breathing, without eating, if indeed you don’t want to disrupt consciousness. Maybe consciousness is intended to be disrupted. Maybe.
An answer: There is the Mineral Kingdom, and its goal is ultimately to become a plant. It may not be consciously sitting around as a rock thinking, ‘I wish I were a philodendron,’ but on a spiritual level, it knows it can grow, it can become, and it will become, a higher form which, to it, is a plant. The Mineral Kingdom is stationary, seeking vertical growth. The Plant Kingdom is vertical growth and represents the next level or plane of evolution for the mineral in its kingdom. The Plant Kingdom, with its vertical growth, seeks to move into the Animal Kingdom, with its vertical and horizontal movement.
You see, a rock doesn’t seem to move, although it is growing. A plant moves vertically. An animal moves vertically and horizontally.
The highest stage of evolution, as far as can be figured out from the Mineral, from the Plant, and from the Animal Kingdom, is that of the Human Kingdom. That is the most ‘godlike’ kingdom that it knows, because it can move vertically, horizontally, and it can also move in the third dimension with depth! Depth means with reason or the ability to reason.
The rock cannot move, whereas the plant can move vertically out of instinct following its growth pattern. A plant doesn’t think, ‘Let’s see, should I grow towards the sun or not? Should I drop my roots down to the water level, or not?’ It happens.
An animal responds. Animals do think rudimentarily, but mostly they respond to instinct, in their two-dimensional movement. No movement. One-dimensional movement. Two-dimensional movement.
Now you, as human beings, have three-dimensional movement where you can move vertically, you can move horizontally, and you can also move with depth, with richness, with meaning, with understanding, with reason, with wisdom. To the minerals, plants, and animals, you are ‘the god level.’
Your goal as human beings is to evolve to a higher form that does not have a name, that can move in many directions simultaneously, that can move horizontally, that can move vertically, that can move with depth and can move outside of time/space (the fourth dimension). You’re moving on that evolutionary ladder as well.
Now, let us ask you this, Patti. If indeed someone came along and said, ‘All right, Patti, what you can do to move to the next level is to be willing to be of service. Would you be willing to be of service to God/Goddess/All that Is if you knew it would bring you closer to being God/Goddess/All That Is?’ How many seconds—how many nanoseconds—would it take you to say, ‘Yes!’? ‘Yes! Absolutely! When? Tell me, right now!’ Would you allow your pattern of life to be disrupted in service to God/Goddess/All That Is? Certainly!
Approach food in a similar capacity. As you approach it with respect, as you approach it with love, as you let the food know that by its sacrifice it can contribute to your growth, it can contribute to your becoming more of who you are, then the food, just as you, says, ‘When? Now! Take me! I’m willing!’ Because its goal is to grow.
If you approach food in a nonchalant way, if you approach vegetables or meat (or any food) in a callous, nonchalant way, we suggest: Yes, that is hurtful. That is a disregard for consciousness. But if whatever food you eat, you regard with respect, and it is within your personal belief system, it is fine. Eat out of love, not guilt. Eat with gratitude, not guilt.
You would have difficulty going out shooting an animal and feeling love and gratitude. Therefore, Patti, don’t do it. But you could go out and pick flowers, and you could do it with love and gratitude, and therefore it’s a wonderful thing to do.
So go pick flowers and let yourself create bouquets and beauty around you. But understand that with picking flowers as with shooting a deer, you have altered that state of consciousness. If you do it with love and gratitude, if you understand what you’re doing, and if you are willing to grow from the experience, then it’s fine. The mineral, plant, or animal is willing to allow itself to serve you, and in its way, become more godlike.
We don’t encourage flagrant activities. We encourage each person to examine their own beliefs, their own attitudes, their own thoughts and feelings and thus ultimately make their own choices and decisions.
Patti: Thank you very much, Lazaris.
Patti: Many people who’ve been on the spiritual path for some time feel they get stuck or hit a plateau and don’t know what to do next to expand their awareness to get closer to God/Goddess/All that Is.
Patti: Can you give guidance in that area?
Lazaris: Certainly so. There are several plateau that people can get stuck upon. One is called inertia—negative inertia. Standing still.
Everyone experiences; many get stuck in inertia. You’ve grown. You’ve done this;
you’ve done that. You’ve done it all. Inertia is produced by a reluctance, on a minimal level to the maximum lever, to think and to feel. It is a refusal to think and feel.
What happens is that people get involved in their growth, and they learn technique, and they use technique. The techniques work—especially the valid ones. Life changes.
Their life changes, and it seems too easy. It seems like it’s happening too fast. It seems almost unfair. It seems almost as though they have an advantage, a ‘handicapped’ advantage here that they shouldn’t have.
Issues of deservability perhaps enter in here as well, but the point is that people stop thinking. They stop feeling, and they start operating out of rote. They operate by following the ritual, so to speak, rather than by thinking about what they’re doing. They do their daily meditation. They do their daily programming. ‘Oh, it’s time to meditate. It’s time to program. It’s time to touch my crystal. It’s time…it’s time…it’s time.’ They get stuck.
They do the daily routine in such a way that that’s all they’re doing. They’re not thinking about why they’re doing it or what they’re doing, and they’re not feeling it. With no more thought and no more feeling, you get stuck in inertia.
If that’s the problem you have, then the answer is: start thinking, start feeling. Remember why you’re doing what you’re doing. Start feeling the power and the beauty of your metaphysics, not just the utilitarian necessity of it.
A second plateau that may be reached is the plateau of deserving. People reach a certain saturation point: ‘Well, OK, maybe I deserve, and maybe I deserve that…I’m not quite sure…I don’t believe that, but I’m going to take you at your word…we’ll just suppose it for awhile.’ At the point of saturation, like a sponge, they say, ‘Uh-uh, that’s it. Uh-uh. I may have deserved that, but I don’t deserve any more.’ And therefore, they reach that particular point where they just do not feel they deserve more growth, not yet, not yet. And therefore, they plateau themselves.
If this is your problem, the answer, almost seeming too obvious, is to stop working on the forward progression of your growth, and start working on the depth. You can move vertically. You can add more height to your metaphysical knowledge—one more body class, workshop, technique. You can move horizontally: Apply your metaphysics first to the tangibles in your life, then widen to the tangibles in other people’s lives, and even widen to the intangibles of growth. You can add width—move horizontally.
But if you don’t add to the depth, that dimension that human consciousness has, that the Human Kingdom has, that the lower kingdoms don’t have—if you don’t add the depth, the richness, the value, the beauty, the deserving, then ultimately you’ll plateau. Even additional height and width won’t help. One more book, one more seminar, one more technique, one more meditation. ‘I can’t stand it.’
The third plateau—the first cousin of deserving—is guilt. ‘Life is going too well. It’s just to good.’ So many times people will learn how to use their metaphysics, they’ll learn the technique, and it will work. And they surprise themselves. ‘Hey! This stuff really works.’ And then they get scared. They feel almost like a criminal: ‘I don’t have a right to do this. Who am I?’ And therefore: ‘I’m doing something wrong, and I’m feeling guilty, like a little kid with a hand in the cookie jar. I’ve got a leg up. I’ve got an advantage, and I feel guilty.’
The answer to guilt is laughter and joy. Start giving both to feel and to generate laughter and joy! The answer to guilt is to give, to start giving laughter and joy to others, to start being of service—not to be a martyr, not to be used, not to be taken advantage of, no, not at all. Giving and being a martyr are quite different things. If you will give laughter and joy, you will move off this plateau.
The fourth plateau: impatience. Sometimes people create plateaus simply to learn how to be patient. The answer is similar; go deeper. If you’re stuck, if you don’t seem to be progressing, then review. Review what you’ve learned. Go back over. Read those notes you took so many years ago when you said, ‘Boy, am I really going to study this stuff!’ But they end up putting it on the shelf just to let it collect dust. Pull out some of those old notebooks. Listen to some of those old tapes that you were going to pore over when you first purchased them. Go back and review to give yourself that chance to catch your breath, so to speak, to deepen your growth.
Fifth plateau: Needing to slow down and absorb. The goal isn’t to cross the finish line first. The goal is to enjoy the race, and therefore, sometimes when you you’re getting the finish line in sight—’I’ve got to cross it! I’ve got to finish! I’ve got to grow!’—you stop yourself to say, ‘No. It’s not a contest. It’s a way of life, and therefore I don’t need to `race’ to finish, to cross the finish line. I need to stop now and stand still and let all that I’ve covered catch up with me. Then I’ll elegantly `walk’ across the finish line.’
Sixth: Some plateau because their Success Cube is just too small. They need to stretch it before they can or will allow themselves to proceed.
Finally, there is the image plateau. The image they hold of who they think they are is not big enough to hold who they really are. It’s like this: ‘I have this container yes? It’s an 8-oz. glass, and I’m trying to put 10-oz of water in it. I’m going to have the time of my life, because no matter how much I try, an 8-oz glass is going to hold only 8 ounces of water, and therefore, I’ve got to get a bigger glass if I want to put more water in it.’ Similarly, you need to stretch or change your image so it can hold more of who you really are. You will sit on a plateau until you stretch.
Therefore, seven reasons that people get caught in plateaus. Ask yourself—even though our description are very brief in many cases—but as you hear the words, ask: Is it inertia? Is it deserving? Perhaps guilt? Is it impatience that you’re trying to overcome? Could it be that your plateau is just a time for you to stop and to absorb and let yourself appreciate and feel the gratitude? Could it possibly be that your Success Cube is too small, that the height, width and depth of what you believe isn’t big enough for you? Or is it such that the image that you hold of yourself is just too small?
You will resonate to your plateau. Then look deeper and find the answer and respond. Become aware and then act on that awareness. As you recognize it, as you acknowledge it, as you forgive yourself for the plateau and then change the beliefs, the attitudes, the thoughts, the feelings, the choices, and the decisions around whatever you’ve discovered, then you can get moving again.
And with that, Patty, we very much have enjoyed talking with you. We very much have enjoyed the questions that you’ve asked, and we look forward to talking with you again some time in the future.
Patti: Thank you, Lazaris. It’s been a thrill for me.
Lazaris: Well, thank you, and with that we will close, my dear, with love and peace. Good-bye now…
Copyright 1997 NPN Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved. Reprinted by permission. Except for one-time use, no part of this Article may be reproduced by any mechanical, photographic or electronic process, or in the form of a phonographic recording, nor may it be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted or otherwise copied for public or private use without written permission. For more information or to be placed on Lazaris’ mailing list please call Concept: Synergy at 1-800/678-2356, or write Concept: Synergy, P.O. Box 691867, Orlando, FL 32869.